View Full Version : Some breeding stuff
Figure "share the wealth" on some of the stuff I got stashed. I save a lot of stuff as you can tell :p
Mathematical Possibilities in Phenotypes
Here is an example:
Variances between P-1, F-1, F-2, F-3 generations.
P-1: Usually on P-1 being the parent Generation there are 2 variances or phenotypes.
F-1: This being the first finial generation from the parent line.
F-1 can have as many as 4-8 different phenotypes.
F-2: Being the second finial generation from the parent line.
F-2 can produce as many as 16-32 different phenotypes.
F-3: This being the third finial generation from the parent line.
F-3 can produce as many as 64-128 different phenotypes.
Each different phenotype may have subtle differences (like slight deformation of the leaves, bud structure, calyx to leaf ratio, THC content, branching, height ECT.)
Pothead420
03-26-2008, 12:34 PM
so is this correct my crosses
ambrosia x bb/ww would be f1s
bb/ww x bb/ww would be f2s or 3s
just curious not totaly sure how that works:)
The sexual expression of cannabis is determined by its genetic makeup, and by its metabolic temper, which is regulated by the male enzyme andrase and the female enzyme gynase. Environmental conditions (light, nutrients, soil and water) may suppress the formation of the dominant enzyme, and allow the opposite sex to express itself partially (hermaphroditism) or completely (sex reversal).
Sticky's_Queen
03-26-2008, 12:40 PM
huh...say that in dummy plz...hahaha
so is this correct my crosses
ambrosia x bb/ww would be f1s
bb/ww x bb/ww would be f2s or 3s
just curious not totaly sure how that works:)
This is a very confusing thing...but hope the OGFAQ helps....read below then we'll take a look at what you did and make the determination. You'll see that it can be looked at different ways. It's gonna depend on your parents and what you did for stabalizing traits. I am by no means an expert at this tuff, I'm still learning tons each day. So if I screw up let me know.
Line breaks show different article from GrowFAQ...I bold printed the stuff I want you to look at closely as I am not sure what you did to make your cross.
From the OGFAQ:
Hybrid - An individual produced by crossing two parents of different genotypes. Clarke says that a hybrid is a heterozygous individual resulting from crossing two seperate strains.
- For the purpose of seedbanks, a hybrid is in general, a cross between any two unrelated seedlines. ANY HYBRID IS heterozygous and NOT TRUE BREEDING.
F1 hybrid - is the first generation of a cross between any two unrelated seedlines in the creation of a hybrid. F1 hybrids can be uniform or variable depending on the P1 parent stock used.
F2 hybrid - is the offspring of a cross between two F1 plants (Clarke). What Clarke and other sources don't make clear is do the two F1's need to be from the same parents? By convention they don't. As well, german geneticists often describe a backcross of an F1 back to a P1 parent as a F2 cross.
- OK lets say we take blueberry and cross it with romulan (both relatively true breeding of their unique traits) to create the F1 hybrid romberry. Now lets cross the F1 romberry with a NL/Haze F1 hybrid. (Ed.note:The textbooks consider this a 'double cross'.)
Some could say this is a F1 cross of romberry and NL/Haze. Others could argue that it is a F2 cross of two F1 hybrids. Gets confusing doesn't it? Now lets cross this Romberry/NL/Haze(RNH) with a Skunk#1/NL#5 F1 hybrid to create RNHSN. Now some would argue that RNHSN is an F1 hybrid between RNH and SK/NL seedlines. Others would call it an F2.
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In the horticultural world, the order of naming in hybrids should be Female X Male. Many breeders and retailers practice improper naming protocol. I have seen too many obvious discrepencies in commercial Cannabis naming practices to give any validity to the standard protocol as a way to determine the parentage. Breeders and retailers should correct this.
When choosing a name for your prize breeding project, it is important to be original and not be confusing. Unfortunately, some seed breeders are using names for their newer and different offerings already taken by strains currently held by other seedbanks. This is definitely something that is deceptive and troublesome. Introducing a different strain under another, now famous name appears to be an attempt to ride on their coattails. It is terribly confusing and misleading to the consumer for another company in the same market to decide to use the same name for a newer and different product. What if VW decided their new sports car was going to be called a Corvette because they are based in Europe and they like the name? They have lawyers for this.
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An IBL (inbred line) is a genetically homogeneous strain that grows uniformly from seed.
A hybrid is a strain made up of two genetically unlike parents, IBL or hybrid.
When you cross two different IBL strains for the FIRST time, it is called the F1 generation. When you cross two of the same F1 hybrid (inbreed), it is called the F2 generation.
The process of selective inbreeding must continue at least until the F4 to stabilize the recurrently selected traits. When you cross two specimens of an IBL variety, you get more of the same, because an IBL is homozygous, or true breeding for particular traits.
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What is F2 stock?
Ok, I’m not going to go into great depth here on just what an F2 stock of seeds is. Basically, you start of with homozygous strains. These are considered true breeding strains, and will show little variation in phenotype. When you start mixing true breeding strains you end up with heterozygous strains. The phenotypes in these will vary a little more than the homozygous parents. A heterozygous strain is considered to be a hybrid. An F1, F2, F3 etc are all hybrids!
F1 hybrid - is the first generation of a cross between any two unrelated seed lines in the creation of a hybrid. F1 hybrids can be uniform or variable depending on the parent stock used.
F2 hybrid - is the offspring of a cross between two F1 plants.
You can also get F1, F2 crosses etc, but I wont go into that.
Basically, all you need to know is that a seed bank will have a description of a strain and its characteristics. For F1 seed stock, most of the plants will remain true to that description, with little variance. F2 stock will vary more, your get maybe 3-4 plants out of 10 seeds that will be true to the seed bank description, the rest will be a little different.
majestyk5
03-26-2008, 12:53 PM
i hope to some day understand this. i want to do more than just make seeds.
keep it coming
Pothead420
03-26-2008, 12:56 PM
thanks for that post:D it actualy made sense to me lol :cool:
- OK lets say we take blueberry and cross it with romulan (both relatively true breeding of their unique traits) to create the F1 hybrid romberry. Now lets cross the F1 romberry with a NL/Haze F1 hybrid. (Ed.note:The textbooks consider this a 'double cross'.)
Some could say this is a F1 cross of romberry and NL/Haze. Others could argue that it is a F2 cross of two F1 hybrids. Gets confusing doesn't it? Now lets cross this Romberry/NL/Haze(RNH) with a Skunk#1/NL#5 F1 hybrid to create RNHSN. Now some would argue that RNHSN is an F1 hybrid between RNH and SK/NL seedlines. Others would call it an F2.
This is where it gets confusing determining what it is. Crossing gets complicated when dealing with so many hybrids out there.
My personal example:
Becuase I do not know what the parents where for my hybrid under progress (Afghan Delight X GodBud)
I do not know the details of the AD female and the GodBud male I will assume the worst case scenerio and consider the original parents F2 hybrids. So the seeds I got where F3 cross of the F2 parents. Making my current seed grow produces ADxGB F4's or even possibly F5's.
There will be more pheno variation, but from the F3's I got the traits where extremely stable...........which I found that these homeade crosses surpassed any of the nirvana line that I have grown. Goes to show ya that TLC in a grow does wonders opposed to the "massproduced overpriced" seeds out there.
How I give out a homeade cross. ADxGB F4's (untested) is how I would label these seeds. I do not beleive in naming them unless you isoalted very specific traits and stabalized them and proved they bred true. At least how i think it should be done. I don't think any homeade cross should be named until they are tested and proved to be a stable line. What i mean by naming is calling my ADxGB F4's "dawgs sticky icky" strain or sumthin
Now this is important:
When you give someone some seeds please tell them if they have been tested or not. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT TO MANY GROWERS. Many of us will make provisions for untested seeds stock. This helps us ensure to make sure that hermie traits are held at bay and won't be in a dedicated seed grow.
My personal example:
Becuase I do not know what the parents where for my hybrid under progress (Afghan Delight X GodBud)
I do not know the details of the AD female and the GodBud male I will assume the worst case scenerio and consider the original parents F2 hybrids. So the seeds I got where F3 cross of the F2 parents. Making my current seed grow produces ADxGB F4's or even possibly F5's.
I will monkey with some numbers...see what some of the pros say. here
If the ADxGB Per this:
F1 hybrid - is the first generation of a cross between any two unrelated seedlines in the creation of a hybrid. F1 hybrids can be uniform or variable depending on the P1 parent stock used.
Then the seeds I got would be a F1 hybrid.
I took 1 male and 1 female from the F1 seeds. Making it a F2 generation on the next cross. Making the beans I just made ADxGB F2's (untested)
But if I took (1) ADxGB F2 female and Crossed with Nrothern Lights F1's
the seeds that were made would be (ADxGB) X (northern Lights) F1's If i get this right........
See where I am getting confused with the hybrids. :eek:
And this is what is causing my confusion:
What Clarke and other sources don't make clear is do the two F1's need to be from the same parents? By convention they don't. As well, german geneticists often describe a backcross of an F1 back to a P1 parent as a F2 cross.
I guess one way to take this would be in human genetics.
If my parents are each an F1 of there parents Then I would be an F1 hybrid of my parents, my child would be an F1 of my wife and I, so wouldn't this mean that there are no F2's? and everything really cannot be labeled by generation?
I guess the bible was sorta correct when it said "have no faith in ancestory" wow this one makes me think....time to burn one. :p
:pass:
I'm really tryin to get the lineage myself now.
F1 hybrids can be uniform or variable depending on the P1 parent stock used.
But if the P1 is really an F1 of previous P1's Then how could you possibly know the "root" Parent....sorta like which came first the chicken or the Egg. LOL
But figured I would just get an answer for it....so i searched and read and searched.
To figure out the The parents then you would have to know the genotype of the parents.
If you don't know anything about the parents seems to me you can't know for sure tell at a glance what generation it is. So I guess at that point its just trait chasing and not necessarily trying to get back to the original strain.
well back to reading...
which came first the chicken or the Egg. LOL
chicken :p
I guess one way to take this would be in human genetics.
If my parents are each an F1 of there parents Then I would be an F1 hybrid of my parents, my child would be an F1 of my wife and I, so wouldn't this mean that there are no F2's? and everything really cannot be labeled by generation?
F2's would be present in inbreeding no :shrug:
F2's would be present in inbreeding no :shrug:
Yep it would good call. Horrible thought in human genetics, but yep....