Bigger Scale?

[Cel]

Hello folks :o
Yeap, im finally here to ask some questions and gather people's expertise :)

I wonder many thing, but what i wonder most of all concerns lights and over charge possibility...
So I plan on growing at a large scale, 50-70 plants in 3 gallon pots, in roughly 20 Sq meters (about 35 square feet) of useable space which is pretty much 8 foot tall.
It's a completely insulated loft, with 3 sky lights.
I unfortunatley dont have a pic yet, but that will be provided very soon.
What my main concern is the fact I will be running 4-5 600W HPS's in there, and i need info on wiring.
Should i plug them all into a single socket? do I need a relais bord and what the hell is it? what security measures should i take? I need all you can input please.
For those that worry about my intentions, well, i need to stash, and by growing 5 plants at a time ill never get there, so im gonna do 1 big grow and get it over with, then grow for myself leisure wise ^_^
Ive been thinkin ALOT about it, and so yeah, would like to realise this idea.
I also decided to consult you people, because i intend to share all info i could possibly share about this grow and so be of informational use to this community.
the purchase and construction of this plan will begin tomorrow, and i will return with plenty more info for the information hungry, and some pics for the visually inclined people.
Ill also do a thorough run down on the entire equipment including price and deals.
So feel free to share any first minute thoughts about security and what i should defenatley include in my shopping list.
I have a budget of £900 and a lil extra on top.

I appreciate all input and any personal opinions 2thumbs

Cel

[Mr Burns]

Cel.

You could run the 5 600s off the ring main, but as your house should be on a ring main you could create problems with spuring off it. Hot spots to be more precise.
Does your house have a cavity wall? It should have.
What consumer unit do you have? The bit with all the trip switches in. Does it have any spare gaps? enough for 1 more trip switch?

If you have a gander I can help you out with installing a dedicated electrical supply to the loft. It has it's bonus that if theres anything wrong within the grow room it'll trip one switch and not your whole house.
I'd have a standard strip or incandescant for lighting the room. I'd wire it into the upstairs lighting supply and that way if a problem needs to be eliminated from a constantly tripping loft RCD you'll have light. 2thumbs

Basicaly, you need to see if you have cavity walls and what consumer unit you have.

Then again, if you're doing this for a one off grow you'd be best with extension leads with overload protection.

[Cel]

OHH BURNSY! You're my fuckin hero man! I'm rather excited about you lending a helping hand mate!
The thing is that this place is rented specially for this purpose, nobody lives there, and nobody but me will be attending the grow.
I made this decision also for security reasons, because My father lives with me, and incase something goes wrong (law, elec, etc...) i dont want him to suffer any consequences. I'm basically trying to be considerate.
I've noted down all the things u need to know and since im going round there tonight, im gonna have a thorough look and take some pics with the hope they help.
I'm gonna post it all up when i get back, which would be 3-4am tonight.
I'm not 'entirely' electricity illiterate, but im not good with it neither.
I know basics about circuitry and safety.
I also know that 13Amps isnt enough to run 4-5 600W HPS!
So evidently i dont wana burn the house, the grow and my equipment down, so i would SOOOOOO appreciate your help buddy!
Infact, i would be happy to shut down this thread and take your help alone (enough confidence in your ability) if it wasnt for the sake of the community!
So everybody else please feel free to share opinions.
I just thought i may add the following, just so i can put some minds at rest.
I am damn serious about this, and dont do it just for my own benefit but for the benefit of me and my circle of friends.
Ohh, what considers equipment...
Well we all know how hard it is to get it all in one go, simply because there are so many out there tryin to rip us off, so i got the following.
-3x600W HPS Powerplant ballasts without the hoods
-3x600W HPS bulbs (with extra red in spectrum)
-20 square meters of Mylar
-10 square meters of total black out
-1xHPS switch with built in timer (to be able to handle switching on all the lights at the same time.
-150liters of Canna Professional soil
-15 seeds of Himalaya Gold from The green house Seed Co
-10 seeds of Green Spirit from dutch passion Seed Co
-10 seeds of White widow (freebies)
http://www.homegrownbud.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1045&stc=1&d=1135703350
*rolls a joint*

Ok so all that came out to £300 on the dot ;)
it was actually £345, but u know, asians like me are a piss take when it comes down to haggling :rolleyes:

So all that is left to purchase is the air cooled hoods and the relevant RVK fans for opperating them and ventillation offcourse...which reminds me.
HEY Cranks, if u happen to lay an eye on this thread, please share for me and everybody else what air cooled hood u used, where to get it and what else u can tell us about it. I'm positive others will benefit from this!

Again, i will give a run down of all the equipment purchased in the end with a total amount spent.

So this brings us to a total of 4x600W and 1x400W HPS
Not too shabby hey? (thats counting the lights i allready have which im gonna be using equally)

I can't think of anything else to add which will be of consistant value, so I shall get back to this when i return from my quest to the new grow room and post more info including pics :)

Cheers Brother!

*EDIT*

LOL just thought id add the seed packs for the fuck of it ^_^
But did you know that all the fresh seeds from the Dutch PAssion seed Bank are in this color packet?
So if you happen to buy any, make sure its not the greenish packet, those are the old seeds. 2thumbs

http://www.homegrownbud.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1046&stc=1&d=1135705592

I like the looks of this packaging, looks kinda cool

http://www.homegrownbud.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1047&stc=1&d=1135705596

Cel

[Cel]

LOL I blame the joint, cuz I completely forgot to tell u this...
This isnt entirely a 1 off grow, because this is a shared project.
I calculate that 3 grows max will be an over estimate and so doubtfully will exceed that.
So baring in mind that this place will be used for a period of 8 months maximum, you can throw all the info u got at me :D

Cheers!

Cel

[Mr Burns]

First of all, if the grow is a full time ongoing one I don't have a problem with it. I try and stay away from the commercial side of things but sometimes the room needs to finance 'itself', right? 2thumbs

Secondly those are PP lamps and I was only looking at them yesterday. They appear to be the best lamp on the market right now so I'll be watching with great interest!

As for the ring circuit, these are normally rated at 30amps (7200 watts) so it can take your lamps easy if you spread the load over the ring. Probably two points in the ring and neighbouring sockets too. That way the draw on the curcuit can come from both directions and across all other appliances. 13 Amps is per item plugged in and not the rings full capacity, so you're well within tolerance if no-one else is using that particular circuit in a heavy way.

From what you said Cel, the house sounds to be empty? If it is I'd use extension leads.
The only change I'd make is the contactor. I'd have bought some 13AMP single digital timers (£10 each), one for each lamp and I'd have staggered the times by 10 seconds or so. This would spread the load during the fire up of the lights and reduce the chances of a trip. Theres ways around this though if you can't return the contactor.

Shame you haven't got an extractor, I just sold a brand new 10inch RVK on ebay for £70.

I'd also mount those ballasts in the flow of incoming air for cooling. I'd also keep all the electrics in one place and preferably screwed onto a wall or a piece of timber that can be fixed upright at head level. If anything in the room doesn't have flex that can reach the point of power and control then re-wire it and make it reach. Having all the electrical controls and apperatus in one place makes for good housekeeping and easier fault finding should anything go wrong. Mark all the plugs with a letter you'd associate with the appliance. Like B-a for Ballast A and EX for extraction etc etc You'll be a happy chappy when it's all up and running looking in order and tidy. Tidy housekeeping makes for a tidy mind Cel 2thumbs

Oh, and good choice of soil. My next grow is in both biobizz soil and Canna Pro +. The Canna plants are noticeably ahead.

[Cel]

ahhh excellent, i was aiming to get the best possible choice of equipment, and im glad it is rated :)
What concerns the ring circuit, how exactly shoul di spread it u mean?
spread the lights over 2 sockets? like 1 in the bedroom and 1 in the actual room for instance?
as long as each socket has its own fuse?
and do u mean that each fuse can take up to 13 amps?
I'm sorry if these are stupid questions, but it hasnt sunk in properly yet.
Dont even know where to read up on this :o
Would i be needing a relais bord? i hear so much about it, but have no idea what it does.
so will the house potentially be enough for 4 600W HPS and 1 400W hps to run safely?
again with the notion of this being stupid questions, hehe.
I'm very keen on gettin the grasp of it all :D
Thanx up front mate!

Cel

[Mr Burns]

Cel.
How old is the house and can you see any wiring in the house? In the loft for example. Can you see any uncovered wire?
You need to know how old the wiring is. You can go by house age but if that's more than 40 years you'd best look to see if it's been rewired. Get a picture of the wiring.

Also, I'm confused as to whether you wanna grow in the attic or an upstairs bedroom?

[Cel]

thats the thing bro,
the house seems relatively new, maybe built within the past 15 years.
what concerns the grow room...I'm not too sure about the loft, because all extracted air will go directly outside, which is a lil uncomfortable for me.
if i were to grow in one of the rooms directly under the loft, i have the freedom to use the loft as sort of a refrigerator (specially with this weather) and so wont have any heating probs.
Also, ill be able to extract the hot air into the attic first in which it will cool down and eventually escape.
So I'm standing more on the room, which is still within a ring circuit.
The loft has only 1 single wire goin up, and it doesnt loop down again into the ring circuit.

Cel

[Mr Burns]

Lets think extraction first then. If it gets too techy for you then say.

First of all is there a bathroom up there? If so, does the soil stack go through the loft and then through the roof? ie: can you see the stack in the loft? It'll be orange or grey 6 inch plastic pipe. If you can then you couldn't do better than vent into this. It's easy too and can all be done from inside without anyone knowing.

If not then I'd be reluctant to just vent into the loft and let it escape. You'll get used to the smell and may think the air smells clean even after going through a carbon filter, but a person who doesn't smoke and isn't in contact with MJ will smell what you can't.
If theres no soil pipe you can tap into, I'd get a roof vent and pump it through that. That's how I did my attic grow and I learn't what roof vent NOT to buy!! You needn't crawl across the roof, if you can get a ladder up to the eves it can go there. It'll be no problem showing you how to do any method.
What I'm trying to say is vent it and forget it. Once your room is built and things are in full swing it'll be a right royal pain in the ass to go improving a poor venting system. If it ends up not working venting into the attic space, the only choice you have is to go outdoors, so my advice is vent it now. If you move on you can leave the roof vent on where as a hole in the wall or a smelly attic is suspect or at least questionable.

I'd use a bedroom myself and blank off a window with MDF leaving nets up at the window.

Am I rambling enough?

[Cel]

I see no such thing as a pipe bro...
I have a 125 RVK and a 150 RVK at the moment.
More will be purchased undoubtabley.

Roof vent would be problematic, the roof is rather high and its just generally 'bait'.
I have vented into the loft of my present house...and i never even used a carbon filter, so either my neighbours are very friendly, or it just didnt smell lol
But could i just get 2 carbon filters? and filter it twice?
I'm basically tryin to get it goin with a minimum amount of work but am willing to invest more to compensate.
If that makes any sense at all.
Dont forget that in the house nobody but the ladies will reside...the loft is seperated by a fat brick wall from the neighburs which is equally insulated.
Personally i doubt ill have any problems neither since i ordered some 'Cooltube' refelctors.
Apparently you can line them up in the form of 1 tube and then vent into them and then back into the loft, then have additional coolign in the room if necessary.
What you think?
http://www.homegrownbud.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1061&stc=1&d=1135814344

Offcourse you'd have to visualy include the RVK on one end.

this way, i can vent the room seperatley and run a carbon filter or 2 for the smell.

I'm gonna do exactly that Burnsy, MDF does the trick for teh window.
Then i know for a fact no light will come in ^_^


Cel

[AzGrowa]

'sup cel?

just tripped over this an took a fancy to it.
Silly question time U did say 20 Square meters right?
must be using one of those Pentium 2 systems.... because I figure you're going to be in the 180-200 square foot range. A bit much for just 6 lights even if they are 600 watts each.
Roughly 30 square feet per light.. by my figurin' might wanna look at that number again.
A square meter is going to equal a shade over 9 square feet and if those lamps are puttin out 50K lumens each... then you're going to be in the 5K lumen/ sf not bad. But considering each plant is going to use about 2sf we're still looking at just 4 plant per light.
Thing is if you are going to use the entire space, gonna need more light. Maybe I'm missing somethin' but the numbers don't work out.

So if ya do use all 20 square meters (180 SF) and all 6 lights are puttin out 50K lumens each yer lumens/sf is only gonna be about 1.5- 2k lumens per square foot, and just cuttin' that in half will bring the lighting up to the bottom of the acceptable range. That's givin each plant 4 square feet of growin' space.
What I'm sayin is ya may wanna use just 90-100 square feet of space at maturity, for best lighting.
Bottom line, the less space ya use the more efficient the lighting becomes.
On top of that positioning the grow space for best sunlight capture from those skylights is gonna help in a big way as well

[CB]

but the numbers don't work out.



i was gonna say the same but wasnt sure if it was me smoke or what:D

is that a typo bro? 20 sq meters

[Cel]

I appologise for any confusion this has caused...
There are indeed 20 square meters. But i dont necessarily intend to grow in the entire area.
The growing section will be blocked off with mylar from ceiling to floor, and the rest of the space will act as a storage facility for remaining pots, soil, and the water pump + tank.
What I basically meant, was 20 square meters of space available, out of which im gonna use x amount of square meters.
Thank you for your concern guys, i realise that the more space and the less light the lower yield, and the main reason to doing this is to increase the yield and hopin to give as many plants as possible atleast 8K lumen.

Cel

[Mr Burns]

As far as space is concerned, I'd take your pots in the room along with your shades and first lay the shades out on the floor. Not knocking you guys with all the lumen math, but I'd just get in there and plot your shades on the floor. When they look a good distance apart and what seems a good layout, I'd then mark the area with string or similar, and then plot your pots out in the same area. I can get 5 plants under each 600 adjustawing reflector and 11 under 2 unscreened. The point is to get the shades in a good layout and be happy with the pot spacing IMHO.

I think if this was a permenant grow area I'd do a lot of research and scratch around with the math, but as it's a soil grow and short term I'd get in there and start growing. If things need a change do it between grows.

Just my 2cents

[Cel]

I agree with you Burnsey

I mean, if ventillation is sorted, electricity is sorted and light leaks are sorted, then adjusting the lamps slightly including pots wont be a problem.
dont forget that I'll be using air cooled tubes allowing me to get as close as possible to the plants.
And to be very honest, I'm not all that worried about the lighting itself...I'm more worried about electricity...as to where I should tap it from (which sockets in the house), whether I should just use industrial extention cords or to hardwire it...
The reason i am so paro about the electricity is because dude at the hydro shop told me if im gonna use too many lights, i could end up meltin the cables n burn the house down. Which is the last thing on my to-do-list :rolleyes:
I have one socket in the room, should I simply extend a socket from downstairs? run 2 600W on 1 socket? would i need an extra socket if I use my RVK's?
These are the questions that I need answered, and some more :p

thanx for initiating you guys, it helps a bunch!!!

Oh and before I forget, i'm gonna stop all the planning by the 3rd of Jan, and start building. Like Burns sayd, i should really just start growin, get atleast the fluo tubes down there, start the seeds, etc... do sumtin to gain some time.
this weekend (from 2moro actually) I'll be gone til the 3rd, so I'll wish you guys a happy new year and lots of green goodness ^_^

Cel