big ol air pump dudes!!

[wakka]

every once in a while, we get a few dollars to put to getting better equipment for our grows. on thursday, we dropped sixty five dollars for a dual diaphragm air pump from general hydroponics.

wow, what a difference. when you open a bucket, a fine mist comes out at you. and both the plants we have in the flower cabinet have turned an amazing shade of green. I mean like emerald green. I can't help but think this is going to help out quite a bit. we have one six inch blue air stone in each bucket.

almost makes me want to get one for the veg chamber. can you imagine four six inch air stones keeping the water at an almost constant froth state? super oxygenated growing area?

can you get the water too active?

[pie]

Wakka …..congrats on the new purchase….New goodies are always cool

can you get the water too active?

The short answer would be No…. it will take more disturbance than an aquarium airpump is capable of…

Could I also inject the idea of remov’in the airstones??? Ever try to blow thru one of the stones? They restrict the pumps capability to put out the maximum volume of air by caus’in back preassure against the pump in my opinion….I have had Great results from plac’in a SS nut for weight around the tube’in and then place’in a T in the end of the hose so the nut won’t come off and let it just blow from the end of the hose…It’s a proven that will save you a lot of loot in stones and the hose never becomes clogged….

.--. .. .

[midwestbluntman]

Could I also inject the idea of remov’in the airstones??? Ever try to blow thru one of the stones? They restrict the pumps capability to put out the maximum volume of air by caus’in back preassure against the pump in my opinion….I have had Great results from plac’in a SS nut for weight around the tube’in and then place’in a T in the end of the hose so the nut won’t come off and let it just blow from the end of the hose…It’s a proven that will save you a lot of loot in stones and the hose never becomes clogged….

.--. .. .
Ive read a few threads about this very idea,and all that participated were very impressed by the results.Some ran just the air line and some added a tee fitting and some even added a mister to the hose to get a fan effect of bubbles.Also by reduceing the back pressure might prolong the life of your air pumps.

[gorilla]

Do they sell air stones made for this purpose? To not clog or put pressure on the pump?

[Fing_57]

Wakka, this pump?
http://www.homegrownbud.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=8391&stc=1&d=1168188354


more smaller bubbles the more aerated the water will get

its all about surface area

Coarse-bubble systems require the lowest air pressure and are very resistant to clogging, but are about a third as efficient as medium-bubble systems in transferring oxygen to the water. The medium-bubble diffuser requires only slightly higher air pressure, but its superior oxygen transfer more than compensates for the increase in maintenance. The fine-bubble diffuser’s superior oxygen transfer usually does not compensate for its higher pressure and maintenance requirements. Fine-bubble diffusers are typically chosen for pure oxygen or ozone systems where pressure requirements are less important than transfer efficiency. Overall, when aerating with air, medium-bubble diffusers are the most popular among aquaculturists.

http://www.homegrownbud.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=8392&stc=1&d=1168189096

hard to see the chart

[Elephunt man]

Posted by a guy named "guineapig":

Oxygenated Water!!!

One of my special interests.....now everyone be nice and pay attention......

Dissolved Oxygen Saturation Limits for Water at Sea Level Pressure by Temperature:

32 degrees F...........................14.5 ppm oxygen in water saturated with air
41 degrees F...........................12.7 ppm
50 degrees F...........................11.2 ppm
59 degrees F...........................10.5 ppm
68 degrees F............................9.8 ppm
77 degrees F...........................8.25 ppm
86 degrees F............................7.51 ppm
95 degrees F.............................6.8 ppm

It is important to understand that temperature and pressure are not the only factors that can limit dissolved oxygen content in water. As organisms draw oxygen from water, it must be replaced as quickly as they extract it. In aquariums, it is common practice to bubble air through the water to charge it with oxygen. This is not an especially powerful way to add oxygen to water, but it works with fish tanks that hold only a small amount of fish in many liters of water. A far more effective way to charge water with oxygen is to spray the water through the air, which many hydroponics growers do to supply their rapidly growing plants with the large amount of oxygen they need to remain healthy. (from "The Best of Maximum Yield" p. 26-27)

One user (Primmed @ reeferman seeds) writes the following:
"Two dirt tables in the same room with 10 lights on each one table with the do2 water and one with just normal tap water. Well i can say the structure so far on the d02 water is far better big stronger stalks and more lush leaf growth plus the table with the d02 water drink about 15-20% more water which means more nutes to the plants the only thing the normal water table has goin for it is it appears to be about 5-6 days farther i bud for some reason but i'm not at allworried cause the d02 plants look like there on steriods and by the looks of the frame work on them all ready the look like they can handle some seriuos weight"

Here is a re-print of an article about current research in dissolved oxygen:

"Higher dissolved oxygen great for productivity, health and vigor


by Robert Fieldhouse
(Guelph, October 13th, 2005)

Dissolving more oxygen into hydroponic solutions could boost greenhouse productivity and provide a whole host of other benefits too, say University of Guelph researchers.

Prof. Mike Dixon and Dr. Youbin Zheng, Department of Environmental Biology, are investigating the positive aspects of using an oxygen diffuser to increase oxygen levels in greenhouse hydroponic solutions used to grow roses, tomatoes, cucumbers and peppers.



Dr. Youbin Zheng, Department of Environmental Biology, is studying if oxygen levels can be boosted in hydroponic solutions to help growers ward off harmful microbes and boost productivity.

Photo: Olivia Brown

Preliminary results suggest a higher dissolved oxygen level increase productivity, health and root vigor in greenhouse plants, and helps keep harmful microbes in check.

“These findings are really beneficial to the industry,” says Zheng. “If we can use oxygen to boost plant health, making them stronger and more resistant to disease, we've discovered a very helpful tool.”

Oxygen isn't as prevalent in warm water as in cool water, so oxygen levels tend to be low -- about two to four parts per million (ppm) -- at high greenhouse temperatures, compared to eight to nine ppm in cool water. Under hot weather in the greenhouse, the root zone is especially short on oxygen, says Zheng, because root respiration depletes oxygen in hydroponic solutions. Excessive watering can further depress oxygen levels because it makes growth media, such as rockwool or coconut fibre, less porous, blocking air. These factors all weaken plant disease defense systems, making them more susceptible to disease-causing microbes such as Fusarium and Pythium which cause root decay.

To prevent this problem, greenhouse growers typically bubble air into hydroponic solutions to bring oxygen levels up to about nine ppm. But sometimes this still isn't enough.

Two years ago, the BC Greenhouse Growers' Association asked Dixon to investigate using even higher oxygen levels in hydroponic solutions. His literature review revealed that very little work had been done in this area suggesting the problem was largely ignored – until now.

Dixon and Zheng are using an oxygen diffuser recently developed and manufactured by Seair Diffusion Systems Inc., an Edmonton-based company with an interest in the greenhouse sector. The diffuser concentrates atmospheric oxygen, and dissolves it into hydroponic solutions. With this technology, oxygen levels can reach as high as 60 ppm in hydroponic solutions.

The research team is currently studying the effects of different oxygen levels, ranging from about nine ppm to 40 ppm.

So far, preliminary results are promising. But creating optimal supersaturated oxygen solutions requires extreme precision. Oxygen can be damaging at very high levels, says Dixon , so it's important to establish application methods for using this technology for different crops.

But if the methods can be worked out, Dixon says the oxygen diffusers are inexpensive and stand to emerge as an economical, environmentally friendly solution for growers looking to enhance their crops.

“Greenhouse growers are voracious technical consumers – they'll try anything,” says Dixon . “But by the same token, they're also very shrewd business people, and they won't waste money unnecessarily.”

Dixon and Zheng will continue their research and will further investigate oxygen's effect on plant growth, physiology and disease. For example, they will inoculate greenhouse plants with specific microbes to see how the plants cope with this challenge under different oxygen levels.

Other researchers involved in this project include technician Linping Wang, graduate student Johanna Valentine and undergraduate student Mark Mallany, Department of Environmental Biology.

This research is being conducted at greenhouses in Guelph and Leamington , Ontario . It is sponsored by Seair Diffusion Systems Inc., Flowers Canada Ontario and the Fred Miller Rose Research Fund."

(source: http://www.uoguelph.ca/research/new...ed_oxygen.shtml)

Need more?

"Oxygenation, Air Pumps, Nutrient Uptake and Temperatures

Introduction: Why plant roots need oxygen
Oxygen is an essential plant nutrient - plant root systems require oxygen for aerobic respiration, an essential plant process that releases energy for root growth and nutrient uptake. In many 'solution culture' hydroponic systems, the oxygen supplied for plant root uptake is provided mostly as dissolved oxygen (DO) held in the nutrient solution. If depletion of this dissolved oxygen in the root system occurs, then growth of plants, water and mineral uptake are reduced.

Injury from low (or no) oxygen in the root zone can take several forms and these will differ in severity between plant types. Often the first sign of inadequate oxygen supply to the roots is wilting of the plant under warm conditions and high light levels. Insufficient oxygen reduces the permeability of the roots to water and there will be an accumulation of toxins, so that both water and minerals are not absorbed in sufficient amounts to support plant growth. This wilting is accompanied by slower rates of photosynthesis and carbohydrate transfer, so that over time, plant growth is reduced and yields are affected. If oxygen starvation continues, mineral deficiencies will begin to show, roots die back and plants will become stunted. If the lack of oxygen continues in the root zone, plants produce a stress hormone - ethylene, which accumulates in the roots and causes collapse of the root cells, at this stage pathogens such as pythium can easily take hold and destroy the plant.

Oxygen in Hydroponic Nutrient Solutions
While it’s possible to measure the levels of dissolved oxygen in a hydroponic nutrient solution, it’s not carried out as often as EC and pH monitoring due to the cost of accurate DO (Dissolved Oxygen meters). However, if an effective method of aeration is continually being used, and solution temperatures are not reaching excessively high levels, then good levels of oxygenation in most systems can be achieved One of the most common and effective methods of oxygenation in hydroponic nutrient solutions is with the use of air pumps/machines and air stones.

Air Pumps and Air Stones
While there are a number of methods that can be used to introduce oxygen into a nutrient solution, many of these, such as ozone treatment, are expensive and not often used by smaller growers. One of the most practical and inexpensive, yet efficient ways of getting more dissolved oxygen into a plants root system is through forcing air into the nutrient. Air pumps are widely available in a range of sizes, from very small up to very large with capacity to run from one to many `air stones’ each introducing hundreds of tiny bubbles of fresh, oxygen rich air into the nutrient solution.

Why an Air Stone
While an air pump tube alone can bubble air into a nutrient solution, oxygenation or the process of getting atmospheric oxygen dissolved into the liquid nutrient, is much more effective where many tiny bubbles of air are created, rather than a slow stream of larger bubbles. The greater the surface contact between the air bubbles and the nutrient, the more oxygen will diffuse into the nutrient solution and smaller bubbles create a far greater surface area than a few larger bubbles will. Air stones simply break up the air flow and distribute along the surface of the porous 'stone' so that many tiny bubbles are rapidly introduced into the nutrient. Depending on the size or dimensions of the nutrient reservoir into which air is being introduced for oxygenation, air stones of different shapes and sizes can be selected. For small rectangular tanks, long thin air stones (some up to 1 foot in length) can be placed on the base of the reservoir to distribute air bubbles and oxygen uniformly. A larger number of smaller, round, cylindrical or oval air stones placed at equal distance inside a nutrient pool or tank also ensure high levels of oxygenation.

Air stones also have the benefit of acting as 'weights' which remain stable on the base, or in the lower layers of the nutrient tank - the further the bubbles have to travel to reach the surface of the nutrient, the more time oxygen has to diffuse into the liquid and the higher the rates of dissolved oxygen than can be obtained from an air pump and stone set up.

For systems with multiple nutrient reservoirs or tanks, one large air pump with many outlets will allow oxygenation into all systems and it is always a good idea to buy an air machine and air stones larger than currently required so that aeration can be increased under warmer conditions or if the hydroponic system is later expanded.

Oxygen and Temperature Effects - Effective Aeration
While forcing air bubbles deep down into the nutrient reservoir generally increases the dissolved oxygen levels in the nutrient, there is one other major factor to consider and that's the temperature of the air being pumped into the nutrient. As the temperature of a nutrient solution increases, its ability to hold dissolved oxygen decreases. So a cool nutrient solution may in fact hold twice as much oxygen at 'saturation level' than a warm solution. For example a nutrient solution at 45 F can hold around 12ppm of dissolved oxygen at 'saturation', (meaning it is the most it can hold), but the same nutrient solution at a temperature of 85 F will hold less than 7ppm at saturation. This means at a solution temperature of 85F there is much less dissolved oxygen available for the plant’s root system to take up. To complicate matters further, the requirement of the plant’s root system for oxygen at warmer temperatures, is many times greater than at cooler temperatures due to the increased rate of root respiration. So warm nutrients mean a very high oxygen requirement from the plant’s roots, but the nutrient can only hold very limited amounts of dissolved oxygen at saturation, no matter how much air is being bubbled into the solution. Ideally, nutrient solution temperatures for most plants should be run lower than the overall air temperature - this has many beneficial effects on plant growth and development. However, if overly warm air from the growing environment is pumped into an otherwise cool nutrient solution, the warm air will rapidly increase the temperature of the nutrient to that of the growing environment. If air is being pumped via an air machine with an intake close to lights or other heat sources then rapid heating of the nutrient will occur. On the other hand, cool air has the ability to reduce the temperature of the nutrient if sufficient levels are pumped in and thus result in a much more highly oxygenated solution for the plant’s roots. If keeping the nutrient solution temperature down seems to be a continual problem, checking the air inlet temperature of an air pump is a good idea. Overly warm nutrient solutions (ideally nutrient solutions should remain below 65 - 75 F) for most warm season, high light plants and well below 69 F for cool season.can have serious effects on the plants root system. Apart from the increased oxygen requirement due to a much higher rate of root respiration which can rapidly result in oxygen starvation, high solution temperatures favour many of the root disease pathogens. Plant roots become highly 'stressed' when experiencing high temperatures, particularly if there is a large mis-match between the air the root temperature. Root stress slows the development of new roots, resulting in reserves inside the root tissue being `burned up’ during respiration faster than they are accumulated, and stress makes the root system in general more susceptible to disease attack. Keeping a check on nutrient temperature is vital, as is ensuring that air machines are not blasting hot air into the solution and cooking plant roots. Aeration is most effective when cool air is bubbled into a nutrient.

Oxygenation and Nutrient Uptake
Healthy roots supplied with sufficient oxygen are able to absorb nutrient ions selectively from the surrounding solution as required. The metabolic energy which is required to drive this nutrient uptake process is obtained from root respiration using oxygen. In fact there can be a net loss of nutrient ions from a plant’s root system when suffering from a lack of oxygen (anaerobic conditions). Without sufficient oxygen in the root zone, plants are unable to take up mineral nutrients in the concentrations required for maximum growth and development. Maintain maximum levels of dissolved oxygen boosts nutrient uptake by ensuring healthy roots have the energy required to rapidly take up and transport water and mineral ions.

Calcium is one important nutrient ion which has been shown to benefit from high levels of oxygenation in the hydroponic nutrient solution Calcium, unlike the other major nutrients is absorbed mostly by the root growing tips (root apex). The root apex has a large energy requirement for new cell production and growth and is therefore vulnerable to oxygen stress If root tips begin to suffer from a lack of oxygen, a shortage of calcium in the shoot will occur. This shortage of calcium makes the development of calcium disorders such as tip burn and blossom end rot of fruit more likely and severe under oxygen starvation conditions. High levels of oxygenation ensure healthy root tips are able to take the levels of calcium required for new tissue growth and development.

Conclusion
While providing oxygenation with the use of air machines and stones is an excellent method of increasing the dissolved oxygen (DO) levels in a nutrient solution, the temperature of the air intake and nutrient solution must also be managed to ensure oxygen starvation in the root zone does not occur. Pumping hot air into a nutrient not only creates temperature stress in the root zone, it also results in less oxygen carrying capacity in the solution itself - a recipe for root suffocation that will rapidly affect the top portion of the plant as well. Getting oxygenation right means checking both aeration capacity of the equipment being chosen and temperatures in the nutrient and root zone"

[pie]

[quote=Elephunt man;22783
Dissolved Oxygen Saturation Limits for Water at Sea Level Pressure by Temperature:

32 degrees F...........................14.5 ppm oxygen in water saturated with air
41 degrees F...........................12.7 ppm
50 degrees F...........................11.2 ppm
59 degrees F...........................10.5 ppm
68 degrees F............................9.8 ppm
77 degrees F...........................8.25 ppm
86 degrees F............................7.51 ppm
95 degrees F.............................6.8 ppm
[/quote]

While agree'in with Elephant man and the info he has to offer, I do respectively present the point of maximum DO levels can be easily reached at any temp. with only the open ended hose that will defer what is lost in air bubble surface volume with surface disturbance eliminate’in the repetitive economical demand of the bubble stone….

.--. .. .

[Fing_57]

with only the open ended hose that will defer what is lost in air bubble surface volume with surface disturbance eliminate’in the repetitive economical demand of the bubble stone….



ok ....... so, would you use a hood to improve performance of a light
or white paint on a wall
filter water over tap

you would have to say NO by your thinking

when it comes to a $1.99 air stone that WILL/can improve performance up to 6 TIMES your advice not to use one

[pie]

when it comes to a $1.99 air stone that WILL/can improve performance up to 6 TIMES your advice not to use one


Mahn i am not try'in to dispute any of your performance data and appoligize if com'in off as argumentative...

I will concede the improved performance of the bubble stones ….however …..I suggest DO levels are maintained at the maximum level without the extra increase in performance mentioned and the excess is a loss in energy needed to accomplish a given task….Noth'in at all wrong with us'in a stone...just not a required item for DO saturation of solution...




.--. .. .

[wakka]

dudes, isn't the free passing of information awesome? gotta be a toss up as to which one is best appreciated, the net or friends. damn fine line dudes. damn fine line.

but a point that has not been mentioned until now. and it's right up there with getting oxygen into the system.

mixing is the word dudes. and it's that word which would never let me run without an air stone. early on in mrs wakka and my first grows, and that word barely applies. our first kills would be more appropriate.

originally using a one inch air stone, being the cheapest. not knowing that there is a good chance that a blue air stone would dissolve during flowering, mrs wakka opens a bucket and pulls out an air hose with nothing attached.

being broke and inexperienced, how will it work with no stone? works like crap. even held down to the bottom , the bubbles go straight up, not touching anything around them except the point where the bubbles came out. little pockets of stagnant water soon formed in the corners of the buckets. yup, even in round buckets.

so two days later, on payday, we bought four six inch blue air stones. boom dudes, night and day. the six inch extend on both sides of the roots. so there is a stream created on both sides going all the way to the top, with more coming up, it makes a nice continuous mix of the water. and that is terribly important.

we have tried them all, ceramic(terribly fragile), wood(falls apart under almost no pressure), those flexible blue ones(fawkin yuck). the sandy blue ones, soak them in hour before you use them, and six inches work best in all around reasons. you have to have a monster pump to power the eight inched ones.

we poured the nutes in after changing over from veg to flower had the new air pump installed, mrs wakka said the nutes practically exploded into the water as soon as she poured them in. that's the word she used, exploded. yeah fing, that's the pump. also one plug for all buckets eclectically instead on one per bucket.

big air stones and a big assed pump dudes, trust me.

if I am really rambling as I expect I am, it's all fing and his christmas meds to blame!

[CB]

hey wakka,

I use the six inch stones in my bubbles and also find a hose at times with nothing on it :eek:

I just plug in a new one and slid it down the side best I can, and retrieve the lost ones after harvest :D

pie and fing I'm lost on the temp part? is it the temp of the air going into the solution or the temp of the said solution?

thx

[Fing_57]

posted it for the left side of the pic


smaller ones (bubbles) give 6x surface area exposed to water

[CB]

soz not get'n the temp thing here fingster :rolleyes:

just wonder'n like..... always go for mass little ones here and try for a rez temp of around 68 :D

surface area like :p

can anyone break down this temp thing a bit for us simply folk :D

[Fing_57]

cooler the water the more Oxy it can hold

I water with 60* water temp ...... 15gl tank with a blue airstone keeping things fresh

[wakka]

we use a six gallon wet dry shop vac to empty out the water, and a long pair of hemostats to pull out any air stones that have bitten it.

hey wakka,

I use the six inch stones in my bubbles and also find a hose at times with nothing on it :eek:

I just plug in a new one and slid it down the side best I can, and retrieve the lost ones after harvest :D

pie and fing I'm lost on the temp part? is it the temp of the air going into the solution or the temp of the said solution?

thx

[CB]

thx dudes :D

[midwestbluntman]

So what do you guys think about the water fall effect?I normally run a recirculating system with 3/8's feed lines and a small fitting at the end.This creates a jet stream effect at the water surface,but I also use air pump and stones.Solution temps are an ongoing battle in the hot months,for them reasons i normally shut down after june until around october then fire it back up.
I know a couple that run only the waterfall effect and get away with it.altho its not in the optimal range,pretty much how mother nature oxegenates rite?

[pie]

So what do you guys think about the water fall effect?

Very effective and efficient method that will provide more than adequate levels for a frequently circulated reservoir…..


.--. .. .

[Fing_57]

Very effective and efficient method that will provide more than adequate levels for a frequently circulated reservoir…..


a tank/res waterfall needs a lot of flow to add Oxy to you water ..... lots of flow/splashing

a waterfall or air stone needs/uses smaller bubbles create an Updraft to create movement/circulation/aeration

I tried a lot last year in Hydro and tried what your saying as well ........ it DIDN'T WORK
tried it while making tea's and it DON'T WORK

not saying you CANT do the things you say, but it's 1930 Tech ... and the least efficient ways of doing it

[pie]

Fing 57….. I very much respect your garden’in skills that are well documented here that have been a pleasure to read and invite you to drop by my journal (https://svr52.ehostpros.com/%7Ehomegr52/forums/showthread.php?t=2453) from time to time just to take a peek at my reference grow for my conclusions on the saturation point of reservoir….
Thanks for your time and the shar’in of information

pi

[wakka]

I did read somewhere that somebody had a strong water pump in their res. had it shooting straight up, splashing against the lid for aeration. just had to turn the pump off before you lifted the lid. said it did a very good job.

but man, the one time you're really stoned and forget to turn off the pump...

[The Hooded Claw]

Like adding solutions and looking at the wrong monitor. Never deal with systems when stoned!

[Elephunt man]

I have read alot of posts claiming that a 'waterfall' exponentially increases DO over any combination of airstones. I was even sure that I read a post backing their claims with scientific data (rather than personal experience), but after days of looking I still haven't found it.:confused

I decided to test the theory myself with my aerobic 'teamaker', and just judging by the speed of onset of (huge) microbial foam, I would have to say that I am very impressed.

55 gal. drum, 15 gallons of tea, ProPump 275 and dual 24"+ waterfalls. Pics in my journal.

[Fing_57]

2, 4" or 5" air stones set on low
35 Gal trash can 1/2 full brewing for 5 months or longer
was 24* last night so it froze a lil

http://www.homegrownbud.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=8501&stc=1&d=1168722679

[Thoth]

5 months or longer... can't believe that. is that bucket not gross as hell? not any grosser than it started?

does the tea get better, worse, or remain the same?

[Fing_57]

is that bucket not gross as hell?

what you talk'n bout willis? :eek:

it looks very clean to me :D
some dry foam on the sides (and a ring on top) from foaming up every day and some worm castings stuck on the float

looks like coffee/tea/soda .... smells like a fish tank

VERY iced up this morn

http://www.homegrownbud.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=8534&stc=1&d=1168800312

[wakka]

it's been a couple of weeks now, and we are digging the new bigger air pump. while we didn't let these veg as long as we normally do, after a few weeks of flowering and and getting fairly large doses of nutes, the roots on all three plants are beautiful.

very, very white. almost stark white. and mrs wakka says they are very full and very firm. will try to get some pictures when we harvest. one of them is called "a ten". and it really is the first early finisher we've ever had, so two weeks flush for her. nice big round colas. very firm. and stinky too!

at least I think it's stinky, hard to tell with three in the same cabinet.

[Chronic007]

what you talk'n bout willis? :eek:

it looks very clean to me :D
some dry foam on the sides (and a ring on top) from foaming up every day and some worm castings stuck on the float

looks like coffee/tea/soda .... smells like a fish tank

VERY iced up this morn

http://www.homegrownbud.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=8534&stc=1&d=1168800312

MMM Iced Tea! Hahaha foamin up nice for ya looks like some good schite for the ladies!

[The Hooded Claw]

a tank/res waterfall needs a lot of flow to add Oxy to you water ..... lots of flow/splashing

a waterfall or air stone needs/uses smaller bubbles create an Updraft to create movement/circulation/aeration

I tried a lot last year in Hydro and tried what your saying as well ........ it DIDN'T WORK
tried it while making tea's and it DON'T WORK

not saying you CANT do the things you say, but it's 1930 Tech ... and the least efficient ways of doing it

A lot of good info here 'BUT'.... I use the overflow facility for DO and can say hand on heart it works a treat. If you haven't seen the results look at my journals and see what you think.

BTW. The reason the lesser the temperature the less DO (yes I know most will know this) is that water is more dense the lower the temperature and will be at it's densest liquid form at 4C (hence bubblehash ice extraction temp of 4C)
I can understand pie's comment regarding the data you posted Chronic, its like adjusting your house heating thermostat according to the outside temperature, but why bother if you can set it higher than the outside temp will ever be and keep everything hunky dory, like always producing maximum DO? If there was a limit of maximum DO, how does areo overcome this?

I realise that may come as some sort of gauntlet question, but its not, its just my interpretation of what systems are out there and how we all ought to think across the board and not go to anal on one particular growing method.

http://www.homegrownbud.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=8295&d=1167767739

B.

[Elephunt man]

I agree completely THC. The 'overflow' or 'waterfall' method exponentially increases dissolved oxygen. There was a guy on another forum who was trying to prove this with some sort of expensive equipment, but I can tell you just from playing with 'teamakers' that this is true.

Dissolved oxygen is made by the breaking of surface tension, try a 24" waterfall and you will never go back to air pumps...unless noise is a concern.

:coffee:

[wakka]

it's not just the noise. I don't have near enough space for a waterfall. I don't doubt that it is a wondrous thing and would help greatly.

[The Hooded Claw]

Wakka what about a pipe waterfall? Takes up little horizontal room and can be mounted in the corner of the res? You wouldn't need a high rate pump either, as long it had 50% more head than required you'd have a DO device?

If noise from the waterfall was still an issue you could then place this pipe inside a larger one filling the cavity with expanding foam?

T/B

[wakka]

we don't have a res. we just got the three five gallon buckets going. we are chopping one tonight. it's an "a ten" and an early finisher. we'll take a picture of the roots when we pull it tonight.

[midwestbluntman]

I had thought of putting a 1/4" barb on the end of the feedlines at the bubbers,causeing a jetstream effect on the surface of the bubblers.I dont bubble my res at all,but i do have positive recirculation.I can actually see the res water circulate.Im just not sure if this jetstream effect would be adiquite enough to do away with the airpumps.The tube idea is fuggin cool tho,if someone needed to create D.O. in the res.I want the D.O. where it counts in the root zone.

[The Hooded Claw]

Westy would one of these pipe DO's be too much in each bubbler? I suppose it depends how many bubblers one has?

If you had circulating bubblers (in a loop) you could have one large pump in a smaller non plant bucket delivering the tubes via feed lines? As the buckets would be in a loop the juice levels would be self regulating? Any thoughts?

Burns.

[Elephunt man]

Westy would one of these pipe DO's be too much in each bubbler? I suppose it depends how many bubblers one has?

If you had circulating bubblers (in a loop) you could have one large pump in a smaller non plant bucket delivering the tubes via feed lines? As the buckets would be in a loop the juice levels would be self regulating? Any thoughts?

Burns.

Would provide 'stakes' for support too.:p

[midwestbluntman]

Westy would one of these pipe DO's be too much in each bubbler? I suppose it depends how many bubblers one has?

If you had circulating bubblers (in a loop) you could have one large pump in a smaller non plant bucket delivering the tubes via feed lines? As the buckets would be in a loop the juice levels would be self regulating? Any thoughts

ya know im not totally convinced that the waterfall effect would be enough to sustane plant life,thats why i havent tried it yet.A D.O.tube on each bubbler would require a massive pump or a bunch of smaller ones for each bubbler,well thats a guess,but i know my pump wouldnt be enough to run more than one of the tubes.I think my pump has a ten foot lift,but when i tee it off to the bubblers it doesnt produce a 1 foot head,more like 5 or so inches.I dont think that would make enough splash to do us any good.I normally scrogg so adding the tubes to the bubblers wouldnt be pratical in my case.But,E man had a great point it would give ya something to stake your plants up with,hmmmm.If i had a bigger light i might be intriged enough to give it a shot,but I only have 1 400w light so scrogg is the best way i found to utilize my limited light.plus i dont have to mess with tying them up and all the crazy shit intaled there.I recirculate my system for 3 reasons,1 because hasseling with trying to get into individual buckets under the screen is a major PITA.2 and the most important to me any way is to keep my water temps stable and 3rd is it helps keep all my numbers consistant.I can test at the res and then test at the bucket and the numbers jive whereas without the recirc,each bucket is diffrent then the others and the res is diffrent then all the buckets.

[Elephunt man]

ya know im not totally convinced that the waterfall effect would be enough to sustane plant life,thats why i havent tried it yet.A D.O.tube on each bubbler would require a massive pump or a bunch of smaller ones for each bubbler,well thats a guess,but i know my pump wouldnt be enough to run more than one of the tubes.I think my pump has a ten foot lift,but when i tee it off to the bubblers it doesnt produce a 1 foot head,more like 5 or so inches.I dont think that would make enough splash to do us any good.I normally scrogg so adding the tubes to the bubblers wouldnt be pratical in my case.But,E man had a great point it would give ya something to stake your plants up with,hmmmm.If i had a bigger light i might be intriged enough to give it a shot,but I only have 1 400w light so scrogg is the best way i found to utilize my limited light.plus i dont have to mess with tying them up and all the crazy shit intaled there.I recirculate my system for 3 reasons,1 because hasseling with trying to get into individual buckets under the screen is a major PITA.2 and the most important to me any way is to keep my water temps stable and 3rd is it helps keep all my numbers consistant.I can test at the res and then test at the bucket and the numbers jive whereas without the recirc,each bucket is diffrent then the others and the res is diffrent then all the buckets.

I personally believe a 24" waterfall in the res would provide DO to all the buckets, with adequate circulation. You guys know I don't do hydro yet, but I am always pondering starting. I do however have a pretty good read for you if you like. It is just one guys 'workshop' on his hydro setup, but he has many grows with it, and quite the following of successful peeps too. Just look for 'Bigtokes bio-bucket tutorial' on icmag. Lots of info on his success with waterfalls.

[wakka]

wow, a two foot waterfall? I can only imagine the amount of spray that would whip up. could produce a major mold problem if it increased humidity too much.

[The Hooded Claw]

....E man had a great point it would give ya something to stake your plants up with,hmmmm.....

My thoughts exactly. E-Man nice thought and maybe there's something in this?

I can see it would alienate SCROG but if you produced different heights or adaptable pipe devices then SOG and standard growing methods in buckets could be viable?

As for circulating systems Westy, you may know this is how I adapted NFT. I use three 65litre or two large 90ltr tanks together with a remote res of 80 litres for just the same reason. One PH reading and one nutrient reading across the board.
I also find that circulating systems have a far more gradual change in readings when adjusting PH & Nute levels. Its almost predictable how soon numbers will change when adjusting, along with correctly predicting when things are settled and if to add another dose, or not, maybe.

As for the DO thing I'm going to throw a spanner into the works. When I first switched to hydro and NFT I only checked the nute level in the centre tank of a circulating system. Because of this I never realised root growth had restricted flow in the connecting tubes and the flooding tank was flooded with the pumped tank low and the centre tank just fine. The flooded tank (roots under 4 inches of nutes!) had the hardest nugs I've yet to have grown, but was the tank with the 'overflow' waterfall effect DO device.......

Grow on....

[midwestbluntman]

As for the DO thing I'm going to throw a spanner into the works. When I first switched to hydro and NFT I only checked the nute level in the centre tank of a circulating system. Because of this I never realised root growth had restricted flow in the connecting tubes and the flooding tank was flooded with the pumped tank low and the centre tank just fine.

I have experianced the same issues THC,another grower introduced me to an idea using a tylinol bottle that seamed to work the mint.I'll have to run threw my attachment and see if i still have the piccy of this lil creation.The basic concept was to drill small enough holes that the roots cant fit in but big enough to let the water flow freely.attach that to your drain lines in the bubblers and "wah-lah" no more clogged drains.with a bit of creativity one could develope the same concept using just about anything laying around the house.damn a visual would be awesome rite about now let me go look the attachments over and see if i still have the piccy.Nah I dont have it anymore damnit,anyway he just ran a peice of tubing threw the mouth of the bottle almost to the point where it was touching the bottom of it,with a bunch of small holes drilled into the casing,and attached the tubing to the drain mechanisim.pretty simple plan but it worked well.

[The Hooded Claw]

Pitty you haven't got a picture Westy cause not having bubblered I can't imagine it.

I solved mine by adding a third 1 inch connector. It hasn't happened since so I'm happy.

F&D I think is the way to go so this DO issue is something I need to adjust to. A waterfall effect just isn't worth the effort so an air pump is the way to go.

Be good if you could come up with a pic though in case anything's adaptable?

Burns.

[wakka]

it's been a while now, and I can honestly attest to the benefits of a big air pump. it has been well worth the money and would recommend to anybody to invest in a large out put air pump.

[Fing_57]

I hear ya Wakka :D

[arnold layne]

it's been a while now, and I can honestly attest to the benefits of a big air pump. it has been well worth the money and would recommend to anybody to invest in a large out put air pump.

absolutely right on with the big pump.
more air makes a huge difference.

this is what i use when i'm growin' dwc style.
http://www.homegrownbud.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=11016&stc=1&d=1182724673
http://www.homegrownbud.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=11015&stc=1&d=1182724336
(pay no attention to the dangerous looking salvaged 1kw hps ballast :) )
i now have 6 of them, each has 2 pistons.
enough to run 12 buckets (good for mother plants or smaller crops).
i was using 1 one inch airstone per cylindeer per bucket.
i now use the 4" puck style bubble disk.

and now a bit of the manufacturer's propaganda:

The Supreme Dynamaster 2 is a ruggedly built piston-type air pump. It will produce enough air to power up to 10 standard one-inch airstones per cylinder and it is vitually unaffected by water depth in normal aquarium use. It is in constant demand due to its reliability and its quality construction.

Pumps 400 cubic inches per minute.
Contains 2 one inch Diameter cylinders.

they're discontinued, but you can still find them around every so often.
the downside to my type of air pump, is that they have to be oiled (motor, bearing, and leather washers in the cylinders), and the parts are getting harder to find.
it makes the inside of a 5g bucket look like a jacuzzi, tho.

peace-
arnold layne

[The Hooded Claw]

it makes the inside of a 5g bucket look like a jacuzzi, tho.

... and has your grow area sounding like chitty chitty bang bangs engineering workshop!

Arn. You must have good sound insulation cause I've got a modern Jap piston pump and it sounds like a manx Norton!
What you got for soundproofing, or do you live in another galaxy?

THC.

[arnold layne]

What you got for soundproofing, or do you live in another galaxy?

THC.

the grow is in a stand alone building on an acre, hard to hear the piston pumps (which aren't that loud...) over the sound of 2 extraction fans, 3 oscillating fans, an air conditioner (to battle the 110f temps), and a stereo set to a rock station.
from the outside, you can only hear the air moving from the exhaust.
i like the other galaxy idea, tho.
:D

peace-
arnold layne

[The Hooded Claw]

the grow is in a stand alone building on an acre, hard to hear the piston pumps (which aren't that loud...) over the sound of 2 extraction fans, 3 oscillating fans, an air conditioner (to battle the 110f temps), and a stereo set to a rock station.
from the outside, you can only hear the air moving from the exhaust.
i like the other galaxy idea, tho.
:D

peace-
arnold layne

I'm on Mars if you wanna pop round for a cup of tea Arnie ;)

The last house we had to the right of France had acres of land and a few outbuildings that I could have had a jamboree with, but work and my partners family bought me back to smaller plots. I've still a very large area without noise issues, but it'd have been nice to have driven the tractor to view the grow ;)

Tis a nice world eh......

T