What now?

[drumin]

Heading into week 7 of flowering I've been noticing some splotches on the leaves of one of my plants and curling/clawing on the other.
These plants are clones (of an unknown strain) that survived my first cloning efforts (frankly I'm surprised these 2 clone survived in the first place). Both of them sit next to each other and seem to have different issues. These 2 plants get the same light, water, nutrients as the Blue Rhino and the White Widow. Another thing I've noticed is that both of these girls are still completely green top to bottom while the BR and WW are yellowing and dropping leaves from lack of N in their diet.


Any thoughts?

http://www.homegrownbud.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=6886&stc=1&d=1164039668

Notice the different things going on here. The leaves with the spots don't seem to have the clawing while the other plant with the clawing doesn't have spots...

http://www.homegrownbud.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=6887&stc=1&d=1164039668

[Shadows]

I'll be honest, to me it looks like those leaves are experiencing the same problem, with one being more advanced then the other.

Where on the plant were these located? upper new growth, or lower older growth?

[drumin]

Both of those leaves were taken off of a bud on each plant. The lower leaves show the occasional spot, mostly the larger solar leaves. Whatcha thinkin?

Here's a closeup from the pics I took yesterday for my journal. zoom in and you can see the spots.

[Shadows]

Kinda wish'n Williamclarkquantrill was here to chime in on this, but as I understand it...

If the spots are starting up top and working their way down the plant, its a nonmobile nutrient deficiency, or an excess of a macro. Spots like that are typical of -Ca in my experience.

If the issues start at the bottom and work their way up then it is a mobile nutrient deficiency.

Also, looking at the way your leaves are cupped I wonder if you havnt pushed them too hard on N at some point recently.

so, my initial thoughts are -Ca and excess N

Is your RH low? If so I'd do a flush to clean out the medium and remove excess salts within it. After the flush I'd apply Cal-Mag if you have some. If not I'd get myself to Lowes and get some blossom end rot (CaCl) and use it at a rate of 1 ml per 2 gallons of water.

Heres what I have to back up my thinking on this.

Nitrogen (N)
Action Mode
Absorbed as NO3-, NH4+; responsible for rapid foliage growth and green color; easily leaches from soil, especially NO3-; mobile in plant, moving to new growth
Deficiency
Reduced growth, light green to yellow foliage (chlorosis); reds and purples may intensify with some plants; reduced lateral breaks; symptoms appear first on older growth
Excess
Succulent growth, leaves are dark green, thick and brittle; poor fruit set; excess ammonia can induce calcium deficiency
Comments
The best NH4+/NO3- ratio is 1/1; high NH4+ under low light can cause leaf curl; uptake inhibited by high P levels; indoors, best N/K ratio is 1/1 unless light is extremely high; in soils with high C/N ratio more N should be supplied.


Calcium (Ca)
Action Mode
Absorbed as Ca++; moderately leachable; limited mobility in plant; essential for growth of shoot and root tips; reduces the toxicity of aluminum and manganese
Deficiency
Inhibition of bud growth; roots can turn black and rot; young leaves are scalloped and abnormally green; leaf tips may stick together; cupping of maturing leaves; blossom end rot of many fruits, pits on root vegetables; stem structure is weak; premature shedding of fruit and buds
Excess
Interferes with Mg absorption; high Ca usually causes high pH which then precipitates many of the micronutrient so they become unavailable to the plant
Comments
Ca is rarely deficient if the correct pH is maintained; too much or too little water, can affect Ca relationships within the plant causing deficiency in the location where Ca was needed at the time of stress

[rolanterroy]

Ca issues have a couple kool little other ways they can manifest as well in my experience...

See where at the bottom of what shadow posted about the watering can effect Ca uptake?

OK, here's one way I know this happens bro, if you do not slow water or water twice always, in container soil growing, the roots paths through the medium will eventually guide the water flow in the medium to exclude several zones in the container/medium/soilmix. It will eventually form into insoluable bonded salts as per my understanding further effecting pH and other absorbtions.

Also, running you pH on the highside, with super high doses of P you can lockout your Ca fast! If you are running pH too low with high super high levels of P and Iron, Ca locks out again with Iron.

So just some additional stuff for your melon brohammer.

When you water I recommend you just water them first until you see any drainage, then wait about 4+ hours and then do your thorough watering until you see drainage. This will counter that "dry-zone" effect that will bond up much of your Ca in my experience.

Good luck amigo hope that helps ya! :)

- REv :smoke1:

[drumin]

OK, well I'll flush these 2 and see what happens from there. I can't believe it could be excess N since they haven't gotten any thing but beastie bloomz in a LOOOONG time. If they make it to a full term I'll be happy. They are just a bonus anyway since they were experimental ditchweed clones to begin with.

Thanks and we'll see how they finish out in my journal.

[CB]

I can't believe it could be excess N since they haven't gotten any thing but beastie bloomz in a LOOOONG time.

mine do the same when i hit em with BB as well but didnt think much about it really and all was good in the end...

could be we just dont understand how to use this new product right yet ?

look back thru my GJ i have piccys after max dose of BB :eek:

rev have you played with BB yet bro?

[CB]

I can't believe it could be excess N since they haven't gotten any thing but beastie bloomz in a LOOOONG time.

mine do the same when i hit em with BB as well but didnt think much about it really and all was good in the end...

could be we just dont understand how to use this new product right yet ?

look back thru my GJ i have piccys after max dose of BB :eek:

rev have you played with BB yet bro?

[rolanterroy]

Nope never used it CB; kinda hard to explain but I don't really feed my plants with any liquid nutes, though I do add some Fishy ferts (liquid 5-1-1) and FF Big Bloom 100% organic both, to my compost teas sometimes in light dosages; at the beginning of any new light cycle or right after any transplant I always hit them with a little Liquid Karma too, also in teas. Everything of mine gets "brewed" first and I really don't use them often in anything but micro-amounts to feed the soil life.

But hey, now keep these things in mind when flowering ok, cuz they are fairly common problems in soil/container growing...

If your pH is running off, high or low, and you are using fairly large amounts of liquid P ferts, your Calcium can bond up into insoluables (commonly) as per my understanding and I have found this personally to be true many times in the past. Not using too much P during flowering is just as important as using enough IMO.

Also, you may not think it makes any difference but really try and trust what I am saying about watering twice above. This is of HUGE importance in container soilmix during flowering. Dry spots (or zones) in your medium has some kinda really bad effect on the Ca levels available to the plant, I have seen it many times and I have never seen it again since I started getting in the habit of watering twice mang! :D

Hope that helps ya, cuz it's pretty common for peeps to pour on way too much P without really thinking about it, just remember too much can easily turn into a Ca lockout, especially if your pH is not "perfect" ;)

- REv :smoke1:

[WilliamClarkeQuantrill]

looks like too high a K:Ca ratio to me. Because they are both cations they can be antagonistic. Does the beastie bloom have any Ca or Mg in it?
P is an anion and its uptake is closely related to the Ca uptake. Usually -Ca means -P and +Ca means +P. The P and Ca bond together and precipitate out of solution becoming unavailible at high pH (alkaline conditions).



edit: why can't I see page 2?
edit take 2: nevermind then, I can see it now

[CB]

l Does the beastie bloom have any Ca or Mg in it?


here ya go Q... CLICK (http://agr.wa.gov/PestFert/Fertilizers/FertDB/prodinfo.asp?pname=3283)

[WilliamClarkeQuantrill]

Thanks Cb.

Yup 2% Mg and no Ca. See how shiny and dark green the leaves are? thats +Mg

You have alot of potassium and magnesium in the fertiliser and no calcium. So unless your water and soil mix supply enough calcium to balance these high levels of other cations you are gonna have problems when using the BB.

[rolanterroy]

Anything showing K in my experience is 95% an after effect of something else first, usually more N absorbtion than the plant can process as a no 1 culprit; like I said, from persoanl observations only.

When you bring into the equation TOO MUCH P, then depending on your pH to some extent as far as what bonds with what, but Ca always bonds, sometimes with P, sometimes with Iron, depending on pH like I said. Even if you run your pH "perfect" pouring on excess P locks up Ca to various degrees.

Very unscientific I know but from "field studies" heh heh

Fairly hard to actually be lacking in Ca as it is contributed from a wide range of sources in organic gardening, IMO.

COuple early heads up things I look for to tell me stuff about say P & K "issues"

K - first sign visually that K absorbtion could be better (and I am not saying adding K here is always the answer) are purple racing stripes on the stems; however it should be noted this can be genetic. It's not a common expression but it's not realy rare either.

P - first sign visually are the petioles (leaf stems) turning purplish; again, as above this can also be genetics related.

These signs both offer me insight to what needs handled and those are two of my favorit elements to have running perfect as I can get them. These aren't red flag signs at all, just room-for-enhancement flags at that point. All in my opinion and in my experience, so I hope it helps some of you. HAPPY TURKEYDAY! :gthumb:

- REv :smoke1:

[drumin]

OK so with all this info what's the prescription to sort it out, flushing?

[rolanterroy]

From pics the call is closer to a best educated guess, cuz you are the one right there so you are the one who knows all the variables that contributed to this. So if you take what we all said, apply all the stuff you know about your growing habits, you should be able to narrow it down better than anyone doing it from pics.

But, I wanted to encourage you not to add Ca as your first instinct, because I find it tough to believe you would be lacking in Ca enough for a defeciency, I mean possible but not likely IMO.

My best guess for what I see and read is this bro:

I think your pH changes enough from watering to watering to have caused the plant to express those rusty spots; could be several other things too, but if it's not mold then I would go with that. I also think it looks like your pH is running too high. I would imagine lowering your pH would fix it.

But you have to go over what you do in your head ...all those variables, and see if that seems right or wrong.

So if I am right, you need to back off your P ferts a bit, and possibly lower your pH too. Plus try and keep your pH as consistant as possible. Also start watering twice and use plain water first. I would flush them a bit too

Most soilmixes are good using a pH of 6.0 - 7.0 water, but as you add nutes you make it more and more difficult for the soil to effect the pH of the water so it becomes more important to have your pH correct when nutes are present in that water.

Flushing will help. Plus if you are a peep who likes to really let your soilmix dry out between waterings, use the water twice trick bro, and water first with plain water. Dry roots don't take kindly to nutrient solutions as a rule so it's always a good Idea to get them a little wet with plain water first. :gthumb:

That's about all I can tell ya amigo; hope that it helps ya, and HAPPY TURKEYDAY! :p

- REv :smoke1:

[rolanterroy]

*Could be your Beasty Blooms is a WICKED good source of P* This may be the reason you could be using too much.

*Could be your water/nute solution temps are significantly lower than the ambient temps of say the grow.*

Once any amount of Ca x P has bonded up into insoluables, it will start effecting the pH swinging it UP Up Up! It's cumulative, like Ca salts themseves tend to do. So this could also explain your pH climb, if it applies I mean.

OK, just a couple variables I thought might ring a bell with ya.

- REv :smoke1:

[WilliamClarkeQuantrill]

OK so with all this info what's the prescription to sort it out, flushing?

My diagnosis is you have way too much potassium and magnesium supplied to the plant in readily available forms compared to the amount of calcium supplied to the plant in readily available form. Most organic calcium sources(especially soil ammendments) are not readily plant available. The signs the plant is giving me are as follows:

leaf curl and necrotic spots on upper leaves = calcium deficiency
shiny dark green foliage, especially the newer growth = excess magnesium

K, Mg, and Ca are all cations. This means they are positively charged ions. Calcium, potassium, and magnesium interact or compete on the soil's cation exchange, and they compete for entry into plants.

My action to remedy this situation would be to stop adding the cation that is in excess to the soil solution and start flushing with a solution that contained the missing or deficient cation. Plain water flushes do nothing to alleviate excess cation, because of the soils ability to hold cations on its cation exchange sites. You have to knock those cations off the exchange sites with another cation.

Now if your water is "hard" and it has a good amount of calcium in it, then flushing with tap water might suffice. But if your tap water is low on calcium then I would flush with a gypsum tea.

the damage is done, there is no fixing it. From the size of your buds I would say you are close to the end. they don't really need any more P or K anyway at this stage of the game. I would reccomend supplementing with some calcium or atleast improving its uptake in conjunction with the use of the BB next grow.


I've never heard nor seen P causing any Ca uptake problems, except when they precipitate out of solution together or if an extreme excess of one causes pH problems that affect uptake of the other. One is a cation the other is an anion, so they don't compete for uptake by the roots or exchange sites in the soil. Like I said earlier, P uptake has been positively correlated to Ca uptake. If the plant is taking in enough Ca then it is usually taking in enough P and vice versa. Too much P usually shows as micronutrient deficiency, with iron (Fe) and zinc (Zn) first affected.

happy thanksgiving, toke it easy :smokin:

[rolanterroy]

Can you explain to me, simpler, what this means...

I've never heard nor seen P causing any Ca uptake problems, except when they precipitate out of solution together or if an extreme excess of one causes pH problems that affect uptake of the other. One is a cation the other is an anion, so they don't compete for uptake by the roots or exchange sites in the soil.

Now I have seen excessive P lock up Ca many times; since you are a science guy, could you explain to me how that happens?

Cuz I know a lot of shit goes on I can't observe, and if there's like another step to that lockout it may really help to know; cuz I know they happen right in order (as far as I can tell)

Excessive liquid P ferts = lockup Ca *I have noticed this does especially happen when using tap (hard Ca) water.*

So please elaborate if you could to help me figure out why this is so, or seems to be.

FLUSHING: a flush won't hurt a thing, and I would do it myself even though it doesn't effect insoluables it does something good, cuz I have fixed this particular problem in the past many many times and they always benefit from a nice flush under these circumstances IMO.

- REv :smoke1:

[CB]

I got it now.... thks all for this input it has sank in here :D

:pass:

[gorilla]

Great information guys.

William Clark's text spot under his name should say Calcium King, not Partisan ranger.

[drumin]

My water is hard water with more Ca than I would like for my plumming... We are on a well and our water is high in Ca and Fe. I'm considering a R/O filter soon... after the generator... *sigh* Growing sure can be expensive!

[rolanterroy]

Carbon Copy bro to what I was referring to...

High Iron and High Ca in your water source IS going to effect your soilmix pH via Ca salts collecting. Add too much P to that little blend and you lock out Ca every time in my experience.

You need to drop your pH for a fast fix, and under your conditions I would pH my water/solutions at around 5.8ish to temp fix that. Also, Apple Cider vinegar is GREAT to use as a pH down agent in this particular case as it has a really "dissolving" effect or something on those very salts fuggin' you up.

The Ca lockout will often express with those spots when your pH is changing a lot or climbing fast, as in your case. When you flush if you elect to, flush with water pH'd to around 5.8 - 6.0 with the vinegar as above and it will help.

These are all pretty temp, you need a cleaner water source, that super high Ca and iron will always play hell with you in flowering when a bunch of liquid P enters the picture... did for me way back when always!

Oh yeah.... and that K issue will always show it's face under these conditions from the level of "toxic" salts you have collected in the soilmix bro from the sucky watersource.

- REvster

[Fing_57]

I picked up a 6stage RO off ebay for under $100 to my door (no tank system)

pH swing isn't as bad now .......hard water here as well :(

I seen one just like it @ home depot few weeks ago
http://www.homegrownbud.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=7015&stc=1&d=1164390900

[WilliamClarkeQuantrill]

Can you explain to me, simpler, what this means...

Quote: WCQ
"I've never heard nor seen P causing any Ca uptake problems, except when they precipitate out of solution together or if an extreme excess of one causes pH problems that affect uptake of the other. One is a cation the other is an anion, so they don't compete for uptake by the roots or exchange sites in the soil."

I have never heard nor seen Phosphorus uptake causing any Calcium uptake problems in plants.

Except under alkaline conditions when the two bond together and precipitate out of solution as calcium phosphate precipitation (Ca3(PO4)2). The availability of both calcium and phosphorus decreases at pH values above 6.0(alkaline conditions) because of this chemical reaction. This is really only a problem in concentrated solutions.

Or because of phosphorus's affect of lowering pH, you could in extreme cases actually lower the Ph so much that calcium becomes less available to the plant.

None of this is because the plant is taking up too much Phosphorus, but rather the effects of chemistry in the soil solution.

If there is a whole lotta P and little Ca, more than likely the plant is not going to be taking up much P untill it also gets more Ca.

Most of the calcium in hard water can be calcium carbonate(CaCO2) which is not plant available. But still can react with phosphorus and precipitate. Which reduces available P. So you can have hard water and still need to supplement with plant available calcium, especially in container grown plants.

However if the plant is supplied with too much K and/or Mg and not enough Ca then the plant will take up too much K and/or Mg and not enough Ca. Which is what i believe is the case here.


Hope that helps :smokin:

[rolanterroy]

Ok that gives me a better grip on what you are saying, thank you for that! :)

None of this is because the plant is taking up too much Phosphorus, but rather the effects of chemistry in the soil solution.

This is not what I was saying just for the record, I dunno if it seemed that way I am often less than clear heh heh. I just meant there were high amounts of P in the medium.

So it may skip one (at least) element that I can't observe, because under his almost exact conditions from what I read, myself and others always had to deal with this prollem. We always fixed it fast by lowering liquid solutions/water pH with Vinegar to around 5.8ish until we learned to back off our P liquuid, which also fixed it.

One more if I may Will...

What relationship does K play with P if any?

Thanks broham, sorry not trying to hijack heh heh, just not too often I get a science guy who I trust, and I do think you know what u r talking about LoL! I'm only part science, and not the big part :p

:D - REvster

[CB]

ok bro's.... off the well water here and onto rain water.... got 50 + gallons now.. is this good to go or do i need to add anything use'n FFOF soil ?

[WilliamClarkeQuantrill]

What relationship does K play with P if any?



Even less interaction between K and P than between Ca and P, for basically the same reasons.

[rolanterroy]

ok bro's.... off the well water here and onto rain water.... got 50 + gallons now.. is this good to go or do i need to add anything use'n FFOF soil ?

My favorite right there amigo! Yessir works FAB! :D



Thanks Will ;)

- REvster :smoke1:

[Elephunt man]

here ya go Q... CLICK (http://agr.wa.gov/PestFert/Fertilizers/FertDB/prodinfo.asp?pname=3283)

Well, I can't give anymore rep, but had to thank you for this link:) . Sorry guys for my steppin' in, but all of you are exponentially speeding my learning process, thanks for posting as opposed to private messages;) .

[CB]

Well, I can't give anymore rep, but had to thank you for this link:) . Sorry guys for my steppin' in, but all of you are exponentially speeding my learning process, thanks for posting as opposed to private messages;) .

hehe EM not in it fer the rep but i do have alot :eek:

glad that link was usefull for you

grow on

[CB]

My favorite right there amigo! Yessir works FAB! :D

- REvster :smoke1:

bubble'n like a would a 5 gallon DWC bucket.... good to go? 2- 6 inch air stone's per 5 gallons


:D

[WilliamClarkeQuantrill]

So drummin, any updates? new pics? hows it smokin? :smokin:

[drumin]

Well, things are still growin along. I did a good flush on them which seems to have stopped (or at least slowed it) the spread but I have this funny feeling like they are struggling along instead of being "happy".
I haven't given any of the 5 plants in flower anything but plain water since Nov. 18th. The 2 WW and the 1 BlueRhino seem to be doing fine and getting close to harvest. I'll be updating my journal today with some pics.

Thanks for asking! ;)